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Spenser Discussion List: The 465 Thread



During the planning stages of this course, members of the Spenser discussion list were asked for suggestions. What follows are excerpts from their replies. The full discussion may be accessed via the Spenser web site, where messages from the list remain archived.

I. The opening question:

Dear Spenserians,

I'm writing to invite responses to two questions.  How would you explain to a bright but untutored group of undergraduates

        a)  what a scholarly edition is and why we produce them; and

        b)  what the purpose is of editorial commentary in such an edition?

For an undergraduate course on Spenser this spring, I will be exploring these questions with students by examining and comparing models of commentary in existing editions, primarily of Spenser but perhaps also editions of other authors or texts if they have a special exemplary value.  I want the students to think clearly about the audience and
purposes of such editions, and especially of the commentary in them.  Then I'll ask them to prepare their own commentaries, probably by working in teams to comment on assigned cantos of The Faerie Queene.

I'm hoping that the kind of thoughtful and informed discussion that often appears on this list will provide my undergraduates (and me, too) with an ideal beginning for our exploration of these questions.  Many of you have considerable editorial experience yourselves, and have no doubt weighed these questions as you answered them through the decisions you made in the course of your work.

Two final points.  First, let's assume that the commentaries can exist in two versions:  one for the medium of print, which will face the kinds of space restrictions imposed by the economics of publishing, and another for an electronic archive, which will not only obviate space restrictions but will also permit textual links to audio and jpg files as well as to text files.  And second, if any of you are so fascinated by the topic and so generous with your time that you wish to volunteer as email consultants for teams of undergraduates who will be working on these topics during the spring semester--all praise be yours, and please contact me!

David


II. Some replies:


1. Joseph Loewenstein:

 Glad you're doing this.  Too hard a pair of questions for me to take on quickly.  For #1, I'd probably show them William Proctor Williams book, something from Marcus' Unediting, and I'd have them read some or all of McKenzie's Bibliography and the Sociology of Texts.  For #2, I'd show them the Cary/Fowler Milton, the Bloom Romantics anthology, the Rosetti Archive, and I'd assign them a comparison of some of the Shakespeare volumes on the market -- say, the Bevington, Greenblatt, and Orgel single-volumes, plus the Riverside, and then I'd show them the Arden single-plays.

But I'm describing the sort of sustained inquiry that Gavin and I were anticipating for our spring-course-that-didn't happen and for the course that Steve Zwicker and I have kicked around once or twice.


2. Carol Kaske:

For starters, this is a great assignment. It's like the valuable series Lectura Dantis. I assigned "Do an annotated edition of this canto" about 25 years ago when I taught a graduate class in Spenser composed mostly of high school teachers, and it worked very well. It gives more scope for originality and tests skills more transferable than high-flying macro views. This term two of my undergraduates have chosen to write such a paper on their own. Of course, as my colleagues insisted when I told them about it, we have to nudge them to see a few patterns, maybe in a concluding paragraph at least. In fact my colleagues went so far as to say "Put the annotations in an appendix and write a proper [sic] paper based on them." Are we right about this or are they?

3. David Miller [reply to Kaske]:

Well, perhaps it depends on what students are doing in their other courses.  I've always placed a lot of emphasis on critical analysis essays.  Normally I require a writing text (John Trimble, Writing with Style) along with the literary text for any undergraduate course I teach--at the moment, for example, for my sections of the Shakespeare survey.

But if that is the norm, then I think there could be real value in a single course that takes a different approach. 

What do undergrads coming to Spenser for the first time most egregiously lack to help them read the poem appreciatively?  For most of them, isn't it familiarity with (for starters) Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Petrarch, Ariosto, Tasso, and the Bible?  To my mind, one of the real virtues of this assignment is the range of antecedent reading it will urge the students to do--broad, yet also focused by the needs of a specific trajectory, because the needs of a particular canto will send them to particular episodes and passages.  They'll probably need to work in teams just to manage the literary history evoked by tours de force like the Bower of Bliss or Busyrane's palace.

Of course problems of economy and purpose in presentation will also require certain deliberate kinds of critical thinking, so nudging--say, by requiring an "introduction" to the glossed canto--is probably a good idea.  But I disagree with the colleague who wants to relegate the annotations to an appendix.  I think there are real benefits to the impropriety of asking the students to work, for once, in a different form than the critical essay, and to take that form seriously by studying it and reflecting on it.  From the sound of it, I'd guess that your colleague doesn't (take commentary seriously as a form, that is).

4. Thomas P. Roche, Jr.:

Your reply, David, sounds like the course I have been giving for the past thirty years, --Virgil, Ariosto, Tasso, and Spenser (VATS).  It is an awful lot of reading for 12 weeks, but it pays off.  Also on the subject of when you identify figures in the FQ, I chose to "identify" them only when Spenser does to avoid flattening out the student-as-reader response.  For example, Una is first named only after the appearance of Duessa, which is brilliant theology as well as poetry.  You don't know what Una is until after you meet Duessa.  I suggested to Anne Lake Prescott that we have a session on what Una means at Kazoo, but since I have not heard back, I suppose not.  I want to follow this correspondence and jump back in later.  tpr

5. Michael Saenger:

I agree that it's a great assignment and I'd venture an answer for a and b.

I think a scholarly edition should responsibly communicate the best text(s) available and give a reasonably comprehensive, though truncated, explanation of a variety of topics such as provenance, explication, date, basic textual conception, etc.  However, I think it should be alert to interpretative liberties which either were intended to reside with the reader or must reside there due to limited contact with dead authors.  A scholarly edition can err either in inadequately explaining the obscure, or in excessively explaining the ambiguous.  The latter is increasingly a problem with modern editions which seek to establish a reading by the "wink and nudge" hint.  The work of a scholarly edition is quite subtle, since it demands a careful negotiation of the grey area between making scholarship useful and protecting the readerly questions which are so crucial to the act of reading -- and both sides are very important in Spenser, because Spenser depends upon a great deal of material which is completely unfamiliar to modern undergraduates, but he also often mischievously plays with readerly expectations.  To be practical, should the editor name a character like Malecasta before Spenser intends the reader to "find out" her identity?  To do so changes, and to some extent mars, the reader's intended experience.  But most cases are far more subtle.

6. David Miller [reply to Sanger]

This is excellent, and for my money, just right.  It pinpoints the way this assignment leads the students to consider, from a different angle, the same critical and interpretive questions that a standard essay assignment would engage.

Naming Malecasta, or any character, before the author does, would in my view be a "textbook" case of intrusive commentary.


7. Roche again:

David, I like the phrase "intrusive commentary," it is everywhere in the poem,
what CS Lewis called "Skeptophilia."  Your kind of intrusion is when the critic or editor feel he knows more than his poet, and that is the greatest of intrusions.  tpr

8. Robert Darcy:

This is perhaps an obvious route, but E.K.'s glosses to the Shepheardes Calender might be a nice place to begin talking about annotative "intrusions" of this kind.  The notion of the poem free of interpretive intrusion in the first place is also probably worth some classroom-level consideration.   There is an excellent essay by Andrew Ford called
"Performing Interpretation" which argues that epic poetry of this sort (Ford spotlights Homer) is always already glossed--that the activity of poetic exegesis is older than we tend to think and that the poems we receive (and that our traditions have long received) are indivisible, both theoretically and historically, from the annotation that helps package them.  It is a form of false nostalgia maybe (or false consciousness) to envision or even publish an un-annotated text.

As for glosses that reveal Una's or Malecasta's (or Saint George's) name before the poem itself does, I'd wager that the surprises are safe in most cases for first-readers of the poem.  Reading annotation is not a spontaneous activity, is it?  Don't we begin paying attention to annotation only when we don't understand what we're reading or when we are reading a second or third time through with an eye to puzzling out fuller subtexts and
connections?  Aren't we annotation-blind until we sense a need for the help editors might be able to offer us, and isn't this, generally speaking, only after we've discovered the first-order surprises for ourselves?

9. Peter C. Hermann:

For what it's worth, here are my responses to the two questions. I'd begin by saying that a "scholarly" edition is the foundation for a "popular" edition of the text, be it Chaucer, Spenser, or Dickens. that is to say, a "popular" edition presents just the text itself, with no scholarly apparatus at all. But a "scholarly" edition makes explicit all the decisions that went into formulating the "popular" edition.

Or to put the matter another way, a scholarly edition helps explain two different problems. First, the "scholarly" edition makes explicit all the problems and issues that went into deciding what exactly the text *is*. With Spenser, the Letter to Raleigh seems to me a particularly acute and obvious example, one that still can raise passionate responses (I got my head bitten off after opining perhaps a little too confidently on this topic a little while ago, which is one of the reasons why I decided to send this note privately).  What do you do with the Letter? It's in one place in one edition and not present in a later edition. Contemporary scholarly utility suggests that the best place for the Letter is in the front. Yet Spenser apparently put it in the back.  A "popular" edition would make a decision and leave the matter at that, but a "scholarly" edition will inform the reader of the various possibilities and problems associated with that particular passage, whatever decision the editors ultimately come up with.

Second, I would tell students that a "scholarly" edition helps understand the text in its own time by explaining to later readers seemingly arcane references that (probably) made all the difference in the world to Spenser's original audience but are lost to us. The quote from Vergil at the very start is a perfect example. Or to put the matter another way, the
"scholarly" edition makes explicit all the cultural connections and associations that Spenser and his audience (likely) assumed that everybody would automatically. An example I often use: if I invoke the name "Homer" today, most people would assume I mean Homer Simpson. For Spenser, it would be the blind guy. The "editorial commentary" thus allows the reader to formulate a more informed interpretation of the text.

The question of "why we produce them" is, I think, very tough to answer, because it cuts to the heart of the utility of literary criticism. Why, students will often ask, can we not just READ the text? And my response is to show how an informed response is often a more interesting, more intellectually and emotionally profound, response. My best example here is Romeo and Juliet. If you assume that it was normal to marry at such a young age in 1590, the play looks one way. But when you inform students that in fact, people got married in their early to mid twenties, then the play looks very different (and from the reactions I get, much more attractive and "relevant" to them).

10. Glenn A. Steinberg:


I'm not sure how easily you might work extra-Spenserian material into your course, but Dante and Malory provide some interesting challenges with respect to scholarly editing on the very questions you've raised above.

Scholarly editions of Dante have been common since just after his death (including one by Boccaccio).  If you could have your students read a portion of the Inferno and then look at various editors' glosses on that portion, you could ask students which kinds of commentary were helpful and which were not.  When does commentary get in the way and when does it improve understanding?  In this way, you could explore questions about the format, comprehensiveness, and purpose of editorial commentary.

The textual questions in Malory's case are particularly interesting, though perhaps more difficult to incorporate into your course.  Caxton's edition has been the standard text of Malory's Morte Darthur for centuries, but the Winchester MS, rediscovered in the 1930s, has changed how scholars perceive Malory.  Caxton's edition set out Malory's text as a series of books and chapters in one long, continuous narrative, but the Winchester MS, more likely Malory's true intent for the work, structures the text as a series of independent stories, discrete from one another (ending with a novella on the death of Arthur).  As a result of this unique textual history, you might use Malory to explore several pertinent questions with your students:

1.) What is a scholarly edition today to do?  Should it try to recapture Malory's original intent (by following the Winchester MS's structure), or should it follow the textual tradition that has been most influential over the centuries (i.e., Caxton)?  What is the purpose of a scholarly edition -- to reconstruct an author's intention(s) or to (re)present a cultural icon?

2.) How does the layout and structure of an edition affect our interpretation and understanding of the edited text? For a fuller understanding of this aspect in Malory's case, students would have to read a sizable chunk of Malory from the two different textual traditions.  Such reading in Malory might not be possible in your course because of time constraints.  On the other hand, Malory might be good background reading for students who want to include material about Spenser's sources in their editorial commentary.  So, you might be able to work quite a lot of Malory into the course.

11. Germain Warkentin:

David Lee, I am in England now, and can't reply at length to your query or the responses of others.  But let me say that I think to enter the problem of the text at the level of "scholarly edition" is a bit premature for undergrads.  I have done it, and suffered for it. 


What they really need is to defamiliarize the easy appearance of the immaculate text on the anthology page by asking themselves how it got there.  Long ago I used to give a funny lecture, when things got dull, on the multitude of things that could have happened to a Shakespearian text (performance changes, foul papers, drunken compositor B, bowdlerizing Victorian editor, etc.) before it got to the seeming purity of the Riverside edition.  The same can be done with almost any 16th-17thC text, as I later did in the classroom.  In fact it can be done with modern texts as well, but that's a topic for another list. 

Few people -- including a lot of our fellow scholars -- really think about the varying material conditions in which a poem or play is drafted, copied, printed, marketed, reprinted, annotated by people of very different historical needs, stripped of annotations by anthologists, reprinted in bad forms, etc.  Just to get that idea across is a big achievement. The "scholarly edition" is only part of that sequence of events.  So I would advocate a "book history" approach, partly because it puts the horse before the cart, and partly because students often find it inherently interesting, and applicable to other stuff they are reading.

12. Jon Quitslund [who volunteered as a consultant for those who wish to contact him at jonquitslund@att.net]:

Dear Spenserians,

David's questions and the string of good responses are most welcome, as rich food to chew on now that Thanksgiving dinners have been reduced to a few leftovers.

My main suggestion, concerning the 'models of commentary' that might be furnished to students, builds on Glenn Steinberg's post.  Students might be intrigued and motivated by some photocopied pages from 16th-c. editions of poets important to Spenser, in some of which a small patch of the poet's text is surrounded by a sea of small print elucidating it. 

I think first, because I've worked on them, of Landino's commentary on the Aeneid (combined with the comments of Servius and Donatus in the often-reprinted 'Virgilius cum commentariis quinque') and Giovanni Andrea Gesualdo's edition of Petrarch's
Rime.  Jodocus Badius Ascensius' edition of Virgil offers more 'modern' philological and historicist scholarship; others have worked with it more than I have.  Editions of Ovid's Metamorphoses might be sampled; some, including Sandys', are available in facsimile I believe, and there is Fraunce's 'Third Part of ... Yuychurch, entituled Amintas Dale.'  Harington's Ariosto includes commentary that excerpts the more elaborate Italian editions.  Among the important commentaries on poets after Spenser, there is Maynard Mack's on Pope's Essay on Man, which (taken with its Introduction) is in some respects not only bigger but better than the poem.

What is a 'scholarly' edition and why are they produced?  Like the audience for poetry from earlier times down to our own, the audience for editions with full apparatus can be distinguished in several tiers.  Scholars (like poets), I believe, write for their peers, including some who have gone before them, even centuries before them; they also write for those 'ephebes,' as Stevens called them, who aspire, at least half-heartedly and for the duration of serious engagement with a book, to be like the scholars and poets they read.  A commentary should, I would say, aim to level the playing field for those of all ages and levels of learning who wish to play seriously, in the Erasmian spirit, with the poetic text and the discursive traditions it invokes.

What should students in an undergraduate class aim to produce in their own commentaries?  What should their audience be?  I applaud all pedagogical efforts to subvert the kind of writing (and even more the habits of mind behind it) that is designed to be read once, and once only, by one person, the Professor.  I would suggest, therefore, that students should be urged to write, first and foremost, for an audience of other students, offering the fruits of their research (perhaps also, their frustrations and differences of opinion) to their peers and peers-to-be.


It sounds like David's project, if he persists with it, is destined to become an electronic archive to which other students, perhaps in courses elsewhere, could contribute in the future, and that could be a powerful incentive for students in this trial run.  Sounds like something the ISS should encourage, if not sponsor.  I would be happy to collaborate in the effort, on a catch-as-catch-can basis, in the months ahead.


13. Anne Lake Prescott:

Dear David--I'm racing to a class and can't answer--yet--the deeper questions here, but I do volunteer as a consultant for your students, if only because I have done some editing of a half-scholarly nature (the Norton, Hugh Maclean kept reminding me, is largely for undergraduates--"Don't try to impress your friends," he told me kindly but firmly over our frequent lunch meetings at the Princeton Club,"and remember your reader is nineteen").

I gave a talk a couple of years ago at the MLA for a panel on editing--it was on the Variorum Spenser with a focus on the Giant with the Scales (you must know the commentary by heart--this is the bit with the allusions to Spenser's prophetic
understanding of the dangers of socialism and the French Revolution). I solicited, as a sort of game, electronic commentary and I have a collection of the results that I can copy for you and anybody else who would be amused. Your questions are terrific. Off to class. Anne.

14. Craig A. Berry:

Those are great questions [referring to the two questions posed in the initial query], and like most great questions they can only be dilated upon and not fully answered. 

One way to approach the significance of commentary would be to look at it the way those of us who happen to like old books tackle nearly any problem: let's delve into its intellectual history. How did commentary come into use and why were the various innovations introduced and what did those innovations reveal about their practitioners? 


I'm thinking of things like the fact that it was scholastics, not monastics, who introduced
the interlinear gloss; they were interested in reading a whole lot more than just the bible (which I think many monastics would know more or less by heart) and they needed help linking up the text at hand with other texts too numerous for one person to remember in detail. 

Of course the interlinear gloss is very limiting for any kind of discursive commentary, so the commentary inevitably moved to the margin, and by the time of the humanists the marginal commentary had become the 800-pound gorilla of literary studies; we've all seen those folio volumes with two square inches of text in the middle of the page surrounded by yards and yards of commentary.  How we read and why we read are inseparable and I think each change in the technique of commentary registers a change in the purpose of it as well.


15. Saenger again [responding to Berry]:

Craig's plea for historicity is very important.  We have all encountered humanist books where commentary both on the page of the "main text" and in pages preceding and following it takes on a life of its own -- at times parodically.  We revisit this problem in creating and using modern editions, whose annotation at times seeks to recapture the sort of context which was unnecessary for contemporary readers.  If these commentaries "elucidate" then it might be a useful goal to contextualize and/or historicize the concept of lux which operates.

16. Michael Patrick O'Connor:

I am hardly fit to read this list, but I must say that I am surprised in reading over the current thread that there has been no mention of the Jewish medieval Bible and Talmud commentary tradition.  Rabbinic Bibles (the ones with various commentaries) and fully commented Talmuds would have been known (as artefacts if not tools of study) to all variety of educated Christian Europeans.  There is a brief introduction to these books in an essay by E. L. Greenstein in a book edited by Barry Holtz called Back to the Sources (New York: Summit, 1984); there must be something that makes the connections forward to early modern Europe, but I can't think of anything just now.

17. David Wilson-Okamura [responding to O'Connor]:

O'Connor makes a good point here. Several years ago I was giving a talk on Virgil commentary and handed out a sample page in facsimile. Someone in the audience mentioned that Hebrew commentaries were printed in the same format, asked about the relationship with Western texts.


I didn't know the answer, but someone on the MEDTEXTL list did, and I reprint his response below. The only thing I have to add to it is this: the island-of-text-in-a-sea-of-commentary format that we are all talking about is called -- are you ready for this? -- modus modernus. (I guess this is only funny if you already know that it came into being in the twelfth century, and by the fifteenth century was getting downright hoary. Sorry.)

Maybe I should add that this format was also used at an early date for law texts, both canon and civil; for this usage, Anthony Grafton cites K. Haebler, The Study of Incunabula, tr. L. E. Osborne (1933), p. 91. Now, on to the good stuff:


Date:         Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:20:22 -0600
Sender: Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technology

<MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

From: Willis Johnson <willis@UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: origins of Hebrew commentary format


The format you described was developed by the redactors of the Latin Glossa Ordinaria on the Bible working in northern France in the early 12th century.

The format had stabilized by 1200 and in Latin manuscripts looks similar to what one finds in printed editions of the Gloss. Somewhat later,this format was imitated by Hebrew scribes in their production of glossed biblical and legal texts.  The format of the printed Talmud, though, did not appear until the first printings in the late 15th century.

This format evolved as reading and teaching practices changed with the rise of the
university system.  The new teaching format required standardized books that were easy to use for reference.  Glossed books (whether the glossa ordinaria or modern talmuds) always have running headings and clear sectional divisions, as well as numbering systems and complex indexes.  Great for the classroom--none of these were necessary when reading was solitary and self-paced.  As a talmudist, I use glossed books in my daily research and teaching and lament the absence of this form in English.  It's tremendously handy to have everything together on one page.

There's a study of the evolution of the layout of the gloss by ChristopherDe Hamel:
 Glossed books of the Bible and the origins of the Paris.  Woodbridge, Suffolk : D.S. Brewer ; Totowa, NJ : distributed in the USA by Biblio, 1984.

Also take a look at the introduction to the Brepols reprint of the glossa ordinaria, where there are good essays by Karlfried Froehlich and MargaretGibson:


Bible. Latin. Vulgate. 1480. Biblia latina cum glossa ordinaria : facsimile reprint of the editio princeps Adolph Rusch of Strassburg 1480/81 / introduction by Karlfried Froehlich and Margaret T. Gibson.  Brepols : Turnhout.

18. Daniel Knauss [responding to the initial pair of questions]:

a.) See "The Reader to Geffrey Chaucer" in the 1598 Speght edition of the Works of Chaucer. In more contemporary terms, a scholarly edition aims to extract a "text" from its messy, foreign, multiplicitous historical embeddedness as a book. Scholars produce scholarly editions to 1) increase and aid serious readers' access to old books in the absence or inutility of the old books themselves, 2) to increase the pool of serious readers, and 3) to increase the pool of scholars. (Which is also to say they're doing what they do to earn a living and the legitimize and bring honor to the way they earn their living.)

b.) As others have already indicated, each editor has their own purposes with commentary. There is what they say they will and won't do, what they in fact do and don't do, and what others say about what they should or shouldn't have done.

It might be interesting to look at something very specific, like the envoi of SC, where there is a long-standing and probably unresolvable argument about the existence or non-existence of a literary bow to the author(s) of Piers Plowman. Critical editions and commentaries differ, sometimes substantially, in how they handle this problem, and they're all participants in a 400+ year-old canon controversy. It doesn't take much evidence from Piers' editors' comments to see that the arguments in favor of a Piers reference in the envoi are probably biased by the editors' involvement in the 18th-19thC "invention of Middle English" and the need to legitimize the work they were doing. And for the other side, there is the equally compelling accusation of bias (since Puttenham at least) against the native, non-classical plainness of Piers. The ongoing editorial problem is consequently a paratextual elaboration of the thematic ambivalences in SC, from the preface onward, which editors will always be tempted to collapse one way or the other. (There are some old sidney-spenser threads on this.)

Less involved pedagogical schemes--Show students a Riverside Chaucer, Skeat's multivolume Chaucer with apocryphal works, and a 16thC facsimile of Chaucer's works. Ask what the benefits and drawbacks are for each as companions to Spenser.  Have students read editorial prefatory material from 16thC Chaucer editions, especially the 1598 Speght:

1) "The Reader to Chaucer" poem that has the ghost of Chaucer praise the editor for "restoring" him.

2) The bogus "Chaucers Life" that quotes Sidney very selectively on Chaucer and presents Spenser's completion of the Squire's Tale as an act of literally inspired channelling rather than creative commentary

19. Prescott again [responding to #16 above]:

A very useful reminder--Beryl Smalley (if I'm spelling her right, which is always unlikely with this literally somewhat dyslexic professor)--in her now dated but still impressive book on biblical commentary in the Middle Ages stresses this point.

At "my" conference on [the Biblical] David this weekend we will have talks by Jason Rosenblatt (English, Georgetown), who does Milton's Hebraism, and Chanita Goodblatt (Ben Gurion Univ. of the Negev), who does Donne's. Both are excellent sources of how Renaissance Christians like oh, say, John Selden knew rabbinic commentary.


By now so many have had their say that I'll just add that we now have an interesting irony of in some cases needing to comment on commentary on commentary. And so on, says Pope's poem on fleas, *ad infinitum*. A complicating factor that seems worth mention is what my colleague David Kastan calls "the new boredom"--the study of the cultural meaning of the physcial presentation of a book. Hence, I think, the importance
of including past commentary in something like its original shape--and not, as does the Norton Spenser, busting EK down to footnotes. Maybe in the next edition . . . . Anne Prescott.

20. Andrew Ford:


Gentlemen,

Tom Roche, a dear friend (and , I'm proud to say, erstwhile Greek student), has forwarded your query about one of my articles. The reference is: "Epic and the Earliest Greek Allegorists." Pp. 33-53 in Epics and the Contemporary World, edd. M. Beissinger, J. Tylus and S. Wofford. Berkeley and London: Univ. of California Press: 1999.